What resulted was a long talk about the future of MMOs, people in the industry, the Chapter 11 proceedings, changes to Horizons both present and future, and well, anything else that struck our fancy. Below you'll find part 3 of the interview - you can find part 1 here, part 2 here and watch for parts 4 and possible 5 later this week!

David Bowman: Fine! How's it going? Well, they're designed to protect companies from basically closing while they come together with a plan to survive. We have a company right now that has an incredible technology - we have many many strengths in this technology; we have proven developers; and we've got a game that's entertaining a lot of people and will continue to do so as long as we're able to manage the business and ourselves.

There were decisions made as a company that have led us to financial problems. The court and Chapter 11 are there to help us protect that initial investment into the business. Now we're satisfied, and our secured creditors are satisfied, and I think the courts are starting to show that they're satisfied that we're doing all the things we need to do to prove that this is a viable business. The thing that was preventing us from being viable, was a contract that asked us to pay a huge amount of money for services that we didn't need as a company. And that's specifically what Chapter 11 is for - to say, ok, you're in an egregious situation, work this out.

GI.n: Then you're finding that you are able to work things out with your creditors? And are you finding investors willing to help you go back to that building and moving forward stage? Or will you be trying to do so on your own?

David Bowman: Right now the company is not solvent because we're in Chapter 11, but we have enough money being generated to offset our costs at the proposed restructure. So, if the courts accept and the secured creditors accept the proposal, then we're a profitable company. Some of the unsecured creditors will lose some money in this process - that's the nature of investing money into a business, if you succeed, everyone makes a great profit and is happy; if you don't succeed or the company doesn't do as well as you'd hoped, that's rather the nature of the venture capital system to spread your money around in the hopes that something really breaks out - for some of these unsecured creditors, the money is not going to come back to them. And for that, I am sorry, but we must survive.

GI.n: The seeming rash of closures and bankruptcies lately has been rather disheartening. I realize Sierra Studios the name still exists but to have them gone when I've known of them since I was a child is heartrending for someone who follows games. And just recently there was Acclaim... I realize that oftentimes larger companies buy developers, then the name is changed for sales recognition but I miss Bullfrog!

David Bowman: Bullfrog was a wonderful studio. Peter (Molyneux of Bullfrog) has gone on, and I should say gets the privilege to go on, and done a lot of experimental and a lot of cutting edge stuff because he had early success and with that he gets to parlay that into some power. And with that power and that financial success you have the freedom to try and push some boundaries. Peter is an example of someone that the industry is better off for having - and he's done some good games and some bad. Some games he's tried and well, that didn't work.

You have to be willing to fail. The problem is that sometimes you fail with people's jobs and with their lives. Artifact Entertainment, as a company, made both good and bad decisions; but the bottom line is we're here, Horizons is here - the game is playable, it's enjoyable, today. And we can prove that. This is a company that was supposed to be vaporware. It was never expected that this product would launch. Yet, today we have a product that is very playable, very enjoyable. A lot of people spend dozens of hours per week in this world having a good time. Is it going to get better? Yes, it's going to get better. Is it going to become more appealing to more people? Yes, it's going to get passed all these problems that we've had since before we launched, as a company. I think that in and of itself, say "yes, I can invest my time into this world". People are afraid to invest their time into a world that may disappear. The one thing I can say is I'm not going to let Horizons disappear, period. There will always be a Horizons to play if you choose to play it. The company is the issue, not the product, not the game.

David Bowman: It will be a big deal because it will happen. Right now, all we're concentrating on right now is let's get the consolidation completed. Let's get the ripples from the change cleaned up. And Europe, today, they're down while they combine. So, all of the stuff that we did, it's happening to their worlds right now. They're going to come up and they're going to find some problems in that because there's no way of testing the impact in Europe with a full shard with all these changes until it's on a full shard in Europe! We'll find something we didn't see on the shards here in North America.

The Europeans are some very hard-core gung-ho players, too. So they'll find some great stuff. And I want to support them better than we've been able to do. And Game Network (the European publisher) is a smaller company than we are in their ability to support Horizons. And working in two time zones which are SO opposite, we being in MST and they in CET, but they've got passionate people that care there, too - about the product and about the people who play the game. Late tonight I've got a phone meeting scheduled with them about getting together. How DO we make that happen?

It's worth trying and once again, when we launched there were come complications because we had multiple parties involved, it wasn't just Game Network and ourselves. We're still not a mass-market phenomena yet, at all. In North American, Final Fantasy XI has 500,000 worldwide. So you're looking at 100,000 as a benchmark of success because you're making a lot of money at that number but 500,000 is the number we work towards.

GI.n: As far as I'm concerned 15,000 is a successful game...

David Bowman: We've got a lot more than 15,000.

GI.n: Do you know your numbers, can you quote them?

David Bowman: Yeah, I know them. What I will tell you is that when we filed for Chapter 11 we had 20,000 North American customers. It's up to Game Network to share their European numbers if they want to. We had 34,000 people at our peak. We had too little for 8 shards, too much real estate for too few players. Right now with the consolidation, our concentration is where we want it be. This game is best when there's a feeling of a constant flow of people into the world.

David Bowman: On the role-playing shard it's very different.

GI.n: Yes, but people are afraid of role-playing...

David Bowman: Which is why we provide an alternative. However you're right, the towns are very quiet and it's not because people aren't talking they're just not talking to you. It's one of the reasons I'm against tabbed chat - you miss the calls for help - but people wanted tabbed chat so we gave them tabbed chat.

GI.n: Yes, it's very frustrating to send a new player to the game and they walk into a starter town wanting to know "what do I do?" and not have that immediate response that a seasoned MOG player would expect but even worse, if they're a new player.

David Bowman: Making it friendlier for the new players is one of the challenges that we have.

GI.n: Are you going to be looking at the DAoC/AO model of having senior players help the new players? A game of your scope would really benefit from it.

David Bowman: We'd love to. For us, we would need a coordinator. A right now it can't be done by this company.

I was a strong advocate of Asheron's Call's system - I'm glad to see it back in. Turbine has some leeway that a Microsoft doesn't. We could say we've got nothing to lose and just go for it. But what I would lose is the full-time attention of one individual to coordinate that. And right now I can't afford the full-time distraction of a single individual. We're doing an amazing amount of work right now and we have to stay with that schedule.

When we get to the appropriate point, where the company is capable of doing this without disrupting the company's success in the future that is exactly what we'll be doing. So, it's 100% the right place to go because it builds a stronger community. If you want to have a world, then you need to enable the people in that world to live.

GI.n: If I had to pick the one thing that Rubies of Eventide did perfectly it was the greeters when you left the training area. You left training and someone immediately said to you "Hi. I'm here to help, if you need anything let me know."

David Bowman: You know what? I 100% agree with that. I think that's exactly what every game needs, especially social, highly complex games. Horizons needs a growing stable audience and a lot of things will become possible. Artifact Entertainment is going to become, in a way that it's never been able to before, a company that runs under its own power.

David Bowman: I've got some very specific times in mind but I've learned that for some things if you issue timeframes people get crazy if you don't hit a specific date. For other things we have a responsibility to try to say "yes, we're aware of this problem, we're fixing it".

In this particular case, Artifact Entertainment, this month of September, we will be in a position to grow Horizons starting this month. And going into the next few months leading to the New Year, I expect to see our player base increase, I expect there will be a small spike and slow growth.

GI.n: When do you expect to grow Artifact, though? That's a completely separate question. Are you going to be running on the same number of people?

David Bowman: I'm going to be running on the same number of people for this month. We've already made some changes internally - a large number of us went without for a while. We're at a point today where the company isn't asking as much in sacrifice. Now, we're going from there to a company that is looking at very slow controlled growth. Very careful growth - we're not going to announce anything until we've hired the person and got them onboard.

There are number of great employees that we had the very good fortune of having work here. And, because of mistakes in the past, we weren't able to keep them. I want them to succeed and be happy and I want their services to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. So, they need to be working in this industry with wherever there is a company making a good product.

With the success of several of our former employees going out to work the other people in the industry I think this industry is better off. I cannot do right by them by bringing them here today, because our ability to spend money is governed under the Chapter 11 proceedings. So, once we get through what we're doing as a company and we can freely make decisions about spending based upon what is right for the company then we'll look at the hiring of other individuals.

I think we've proven, today, that the staff we have in this building is capable of changing, improving and providing a good experience. There's no single individual in the company's past and say "this single individual prevented us from succeeding or led to where we are", but the combined chemistry of the company's past inhibited the success. It inhibited the skill sets and abilities of a lot of the team. What I think we've shown in the passed few months is what this team can do when it's unleashed. We're going to remain unleashed and we're going to work hard and we're going to do it, to put it very bluntly, I'm going to do it the way I want it to be done. We're going to follow that. I'm the CEO of this company; it's my responsibility.

GI.n: Are you going to go back to the Producer's role? It's something that was missing for a long time and it really showed.

David Bowman: I am the producer/creative director for Horizons. I was very busy in the past...

GI.n: And truthfully, it showed. Not having you there, not having somebody directing...

David Bowman: Our methodologies have changed. I used the word unleashed and I think that's the appropriate thing. We were trying to operate as a company in a manner that was shaped by our history. For better or for worse, at this point in time, I'm in charge of Horizons and in charge the company. But, I am focusing on the product. I've got some people in this building who are helping me make sure that the company is going to be fine. I need to pay attention to the product with 100% of my being so that all of the energy and work that the company has done can be expressed to its best. So people can see what we've done already.

As soon as we've gone through that process, we're wrapping up the major changes this week, I think that everybody will recognize that this capability and demonstrating that capability to entertain, to have a really interesting storyline that is progressing, to have players participating in a world in a way that nobody else can offer. And that's the future of this company, that's what's going to make this all work. It's important to get your bills paid, it's important to make sure you've got a building and electricity, etc. We've done that, we will continue to do that.

GI.n: You've got the major changes to the game finishing this week and somewhere in the next month you'll have the Chapter 11 situation hopefully wrapped up and know where you going to have to do to concretely know what you'll have to do to fulfill your end of that. So, you'll know concretely where the game sits and where the company sits. How is it you plan to go forward and let the community, not just the Horizons community but also the gaming community, know this is what we've done and where we are and where we're going?

David Bowman: Yes. This is why you should take a look at Horizons if you didn't look before and if you looked the first time and didn't like it, take a look now.

GI.n: I don't imagine you've got a particularly large marketing budget and truthfully, you've never had particularly great or supportive fansites.

David Bowman: Right now we have our existing fans and they deserve our full attention so we're giving it to them.

Let me back up a little on that. When I was with Asheron's Call 1, we had 30,000 subscribers and we were getting hammered. We were never mentioned in the press we were always being compared to Ultima Online and Everquest. So it didn't get its due in the press and it wasn't getting any marketing - you couldn't find it on store shelves. But we went from 30,000 to 114,000 doing exactly what I'm doing here. This is, turning them into evangelists by giving them something that they're excited about and they can tell people they're excited about.

GI.n: One of Asheron's Call's strengths is its in-depth easily reachable storyline. They've made story-based content into an artform and through it created a world.

David Bowman: There's a big conflict within companies between games and worlds. Even within this company we had developers who only wanted to make a game or only wanted to make a world and I believe that you have to pay attention to the game or the world will fall apart. But, for longevity and for the audience we're trying to build a world that you can know the rules of - so there is predictability and masterability like there is in games - but its to facilitate people getting together as groups and building, shaping a space. That's what I'm trying to do. Not just affecting the world in a casual way but where they're able to change the world.

I want a place that you can go into on your terms, a place where your friends, family, or whatever group you choose to be with - you enter into this world, you spend the time you choose to be in this world and then you step out again. And you have a normal healthy life outside of the game. But, you were entertained in that space.

GI.n: Have you seen the warning in Final Fantasy XI about not forgetting about your loved ones and work, etc?

David Bowman: Yes. A lot of these games are not addictive, but they are compelling and they reward behaviors which lead to in-game time. They do a variable schedule of reinforcement, like lab rats, where you don't get it every time. A lot of the games were built either consciously or unconsciously on that premise - sucking people in and keeping them in the game.

I would like to build a space, and that's what Horizons is intended to be is a space to enter and you choose to come back to because you had an enjoyable time there.

Continue reading with Part 4...